After winning the Golden Lion for her film “Happening” at the 78th Venice Film Festival, French director Audrey Diwan is back with her latest film, “Emmanuelle,” starring Noémie Merlant, Naomi Watts and Will Sharpe. Based on the 1967 novel by Emmanuelle Arsan, it is the eighth theatrical film in the series of the same name, and the fifteenth film overall. It follows Emmanuelle, a quality controller for a luxury hotel brand, who arrives in Hong Kong to evaluate a hotel run by Margot, having been tasked with finding a good reason to sack her. Searching for a lost pleasure, she has numeral sensual experiences inside the hotel, and crosses path with Kei, a mysterious client who she becomes infatuated with.
At the 2024 San Sebastián International Film Festival, Tara Karajica sat down with Audrey Diwan and Noémie Merlant to discuss the film – that opened the festival and screened in Competition – as well as the portrayal of female bodies and sexuality, highlighting the importance of consent and the exploration of female pleasure. Diwan and Merlant also speak about the collaborative process with actors and an intimacy coordinator to ensure authenticity in depicting sexual scenes and touch on the stigma around feminism and the definition of eroticism in Art.
Audrey, how has making the film and Noémie, how has acting in the film changed the perception you have of the female body and your relationship with your own bodies?
Audrey Diwan: You should answer first because you talked about it. I remember when you first told me that how you related to and how you felt your connection to your body was something close to Emmanuelle’s.
Noémie Merlant: When I first read the script, and that’s why I fell in love with this character, it’s because I had first a body connection. She is empty. She is like a robot, and she is kind of perfect. She is trying to fit in the perfection, the diktats of the society. And, she doesn’t get pleasure. She is always thinking: “How am I going to give pleasure to the other? Okay, I’m supposed to get pleasure in this? No… So, what do we do?” And, I was like: “This is so risky, but so interesting for me as a woman, and I hope for men also, to start with Emmanuelle who is sad and empty.” Come on, it’s normal that we’re sad and empty with all that we’ve been through since always. It’s the first time we have the possibility to not be a mystery that is sexual and sensual for a lot of people. The first time we can have something else and explore pleasure, but it takes time because it’s just the beginning for women to be able to talk about it out loud, express it and explore it. And, I love that!
A.D.: But I need to say something because we discovered many things and fun things when shooting that movie. And, I would say the first one, and the one I remember is excitement and consent. Because when people talk about consent, not always, not all people, but they mention it in a way that it’s like: “I think we will sign a contract before something happens.” So, it’s the least sexy thing you can actually imagine. But what we experienced was the opposite; the more Emmanuelle evolves and is connected to her body, the more she learns how to name her desire, and put some words on her own desire. And, I think that when she starts saying things, which are very normal, but just because she put words like: “It was actually hard when he arrived. And, I want that guy to put his hand between my thighs, and ask him to lick my nipple.” And then, suddenly, the fact that she’s so self-confident and asking for it, I can feel, as a filmmaker, I can feel that it changes the air in the room, and I like it.
We should tell people that consent can be sexy! We should reverse all these ideas! And, by the way, we discovered something else that goes along with it. Normally, when you do prep for a movie, you don’t talk too much about the sex scenes. Normally, you mention them, but everybody feels a bit strange about it. That’s at least my experience. Since #MeToo arrived, we know that we need to talk about it, right? We know we need to say: “Okay, what are we going to do and what are we trying to do? What kind of feeling do we want to share, what sensations… And, how are we going to say this through the body?” And, we talked about it so much and she felt so confident about it. And, by the way, I gave her the power. I mean, she’s in control; it was a territory of freedom. I never experienced filming sexuality like this. First of all, because it’s not awkward anymore. We talked about it many times and that we are thinking about the dramaturgy and how eroticism can play through bodies, but in many ways. For instance, we worked on distance with her and Kei. This is a normal distance for them and what happens if they just do this, so a few centimeters can be eroticism. Suddenly, we have a territory of freedom; we can all explore together. Nobody told me it was going to be fun.
Is it enough to have a conversation between the cast and yourself for these moments?
A.D.: No, we had an intimacy coordinator who helped us, but they really helped us before the shooting, because I really didn’t want anyone. I didn’t want any choreography. I mean, the whole movie talks about sexuality and how she learned to let it go. So, if we try to find how to let it go through choreography, it’s a bit strange, right? Those ideas don’t get along. Actually, I do remember why it was easy for us. The only awkward moment actors are going to live on a set, picturing sexuality is when, in the screenplay, it’s written: “And, now they have sex.” Normally, it has to have a meaning, like every other sequence. But, for some reason – and I read a lot of screenplays – when you get there, nobody writes: “And, now they have dinner,” right? You’re supposed to say what’s happening during the dinner. And so, when there’s a meeting, I mean, it helps, but I think that trying to do something all of us together like in every other sequence, we have to be sure that we are trained to target the meaning together. Makes it easier.
N.M.: Yes, because we did a lot of rehearsals with all the actors, with this intimacy coach, and with Audrey. And so, we are discussing and trying the scenes, not doing a choreography, but knowing where we were going, the different steps in the scene, what we want to show, what we don’t want to show, and the fact that as actors, we are considered, that you listen to us…
A.D.: I only pretend…
N.M.: There is respect… You can give ideas, you can give limits, and then you give more because you are considered.
A.D.: But it’s not only about the body. I think that you rewrote a lot. All the actors told me about their characters and how they feel about them. And, I think we did something very collaborative, even speaking of the screenplay.
Audrey, when thinking about sexuality, when exploring it, how important are our beauty standards for you? And, Noémie, when you are acting, how much advantage are you taking of your beauty?
N.M.: Depends on the role. It depends on the part. There is some movie where I don’t even think about the beauty at all. But in this movie, she builds a lot on her beauty, and she’s trying to be perfect. So, it makes sense. And, we can’t finish the movie with: “Oh, she doesn’t care at all!” No, it has to make sense a little bit. So, you can see that she starts to not shave, you see the hair coming back a little bit. You see that she doesn’t stand the same way. She’s not like at the beginning. She tries not to think too much about it. But, at the same time, it doesn’t mean because we are women, and we try to go to our own pleasure and know more about ourself and so to be a bit feminist, that we can’t be pretty or work to be pretty. We’ve been so used, most of us, [to these standards], so it’s a very big step…
A.D.: When I hear you, it’s nothing! We have a lot to do because I don’t know what happens, but everything that is related to feminism sounds bad and it’s crazy because it’s good. So, how come feminism became an insult? Actually, I think we all believe – if I’m wrong, you tell me –, but equality is better, right? And, sexually, it’s better. I mean, you don’t want a woman that is simulating an orgasm. And when we explain that it’s complicated to reach that, it means that from time to time, and maybe more than that, all these women are simulating, so I say it’s better for everybody if everybody can enjoy something. Why would we fight against that? And, how come feminism has become an insult? I don’t get it. I truly don’t get it!
Can you delve into your definition of eroticism in Art, in life? What’s your favorite erotic film?
A.D.: So, eroticism is interesting because I think there are many different definitions. When you go to Hong Kong, you can’t avoid that reference that In the Mood for Love is in every top erotic movie [list], which is very interesting because we’re talking about people brushing [each other] in corridors, right? And, that made me think: “Okay, how can we define it? By the way, it’s a kind of eroticism that doesn’t get old, in a way. So, I didn’t want to handle eroticism as you would a bad sport movie where every twenty minutes you need to make sport, but more something like a material you’re going to work with in all the movies, so it’s more like an atmosphere. And, we worked on the way they look at each other. At the beginning, it’s all about control, and suddenly, something happened, and the gaze connects, and it becomes something else. And, words can be erotic, but I even think that a storm can be erotic. You know what? When we watched the movie yesterday, I had a regret. Because it’s a shot that’s seven and a half minutes long, it’s only her and Will talking. And I have good actors, so I like to do that. But I also wanted to see how they can become comfortable being in that frame, because at the beginning they are like: “Okay, we’re talking about sex,” and that makes them be a bit uncomfortable. And then, step by step, they get closer, and they can cope with this intimacy. But yesterday, when I saw the movie, I was like: “Why didn’t you do a close-up on the finger?” I think that would have stayed in people’s minds. That’s a mistake. Anyway…
N.M.: I saw all the Wong Kar Wai movies twice.
A.D.: I remember you said it was Titanic…
N.M.: It was the first movie I saw in the cinema and I was ten years old, but it was the first time I had sensations. I was young, yes, but it was the first time I had real emotions. I cried, I laughed, I was in love… and the sex scene, I was like: “Yeah…”.
A.D.: This is just a way to say you’re so young!
Can you talk about working with Naomi Watts?
A.D.: That was great because I think Margot Parson first in my mind was something maybe more archetypal, in a way, because I was thinking “authority,” maybe in a too literal way. And then, she arrived and I think she smiled and I was like: Oh! Interesting…” And, you don’t know. She’s like that. She has a soft voice, but you never know what’s behind. And, I think it’s part of her magic and it’s part of why we remember her through films, but nothing is perfectly defined. She lets you choose and then she does something and you’re like: “I think I understand the character,” so she doesn’t want to be put in a box and she plays with all the nuances you can find in a character just to make sure you don’t know! That was great!
N.M.: I love her! She is so simple, but in a very nice way. You always think that with such famous people you can’t enter there and she’s the opposite of her characters. She has a real smile and she is so much into the work and at the same time gives space to people. For me, it was a dream because she is a huge actress and to be in front of her was like: “Oh God!”
Photo credits: Courtesy of the San Sebastián International Film Festival.
This interview was conducted at the 2024 San Sebastián International Film Festival.
